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Infinity Ziona Minmatar I AM BETTER THAN YOU	Posted - 2009.05.21 14:35:00 - [1] Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 21/05/2009 14:36:24 Making them common would be a big mistake. Why would you fly a 200 mill recon if you can fly a tech 3 cruiser with covert config and interdict nullifier for 300 mill. Or fly a 200 mill hac if you can fly a t3 cruiser + 300k ehp and hac like damage for 300 million? ... They should stay expensive or they'll make a lot of ships redundant imo. N yes I have a 3 billion isk proteus and have used it and intend on using it for future pvp. Ganking Buddhist Nun
Infinity Ziona Minmatar I AM BETTER THAN YOU	Posted - 2009.05.21 15:15:00 - [2] Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 21/05/2009 15:15:46 Originally by: Shadowsword Originally by: Infinity Ziona Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 21/05/2009 14:36:24 Making them common would be a big mistake. Why would you fly a 200 mill recon if you can fly a tech 3 cruiser with covert config and interdict nullifier for 300 mill. For one thing, you wouldn't lose SP when you die. For another, you're blatantly exagerating on the recon price, it's more like 100M. It would still be much cheaper than a T3 cruiser. Quote: Or fly a 200 mill hac if you can fly a t3 cruiser + 300k ehp and hac like damage for 300 million? ... 300k ehp with hac-like damage, eh? Let's see that fit of yours... Quote: They should stay expensive or they'll make a lot of ships redundant imo. Command ships are affordable. Have they made T1 battlecruisers redundant? SP is 1x. Its hardly a big issue. With fittings its closer to 150 / 200 mill. Recons are paper thin. T3 is extremely durable. Heres a fitting, not my own but will demonstrate: "Well the setup below with almost full slave implants sits at 309k EHP, with 473 DPS from its drones. It permaruns everything including its MWD, and you can sacrifice 50-100k of the EHP to fit more utility/DPS in the high slots. I dont think the Ishtar can really get close to this. And mind you, the cost of the ship and its subsystems aside, this is with T2 modules only, faction modules take these babies to pure OP status. If the prices drop to T2 levels, nobody will be flying T2 imo. [Proteus, Buffer Tank] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Armor Explosive Hardener II Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 10MN Digital Booster Rockets Warp Disruptor II Stasis Webifier II Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Proteus Defensive - Augmented Plating Proteus Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer Proteus Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir Proteus Offensive - Drone Synthesis Projector Proteus Propulsion - Localized Injectors Ogre II x4" Ganking Buddhist Nun
Infinity Ziona Minmatar I AM BETTER THAN YOU	Posted - 2009.05.22 08:07:00 - [3] Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 22/05/2009 08:08:09 Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton Originally by: Infinity Ziona SP is 1x. Its hardly a big issue. With fittings its closer to 150 / 200 mill. Recons are paper thin. T3 is extremely durable. Heres a fitting, not my own but will demonstrate: "Well the setup below with almost full slave implants sits at 309k EHP, with 473 DPS from its drones. It permaruns everything including its MWD, and you can sacrifice 50-100k of the EHP to fit more utility/DPS in the high slots. I dont think the Ishtar can really get close to this. And mind you, the cost of the ship and its subsystems aside, this is with T2 modules only, faction modules take these babies to pure OP status. If the prices drop to T2 levels, nobody will be flying T2 imo. [Proteus, Buffer Tank] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Armor Explosive Hardener II Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 10MN Digital Booster Rockets Warp Disruptor II Stasis Webifier II Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Proteus Defensive - Augmented Plating Proteus Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer Proteus Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir Proteus Offensive - Drone Synthesis Projector Proteus Propulsion - Localized Injectors Ogre II x4" Edit: Putting that into EFT = 375k ehp not 307 with slave set. close to 400k ehp. have fun with your brick. Im pretty sure 1k ms permarunning mwd is fast enough for a cruiser, especially a droneboat with 375kehp. Ganking Buddhist Nun
Infinity Ziona Minmatar I AM BETTER THAN YOU	Posted - 2009.05.22 08:24:00 - [4] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 22/05/2009 03:05:36 Originally by: Infinity Ziona I dont think the Ishtar can really get close to this. You think wrong. The Ishtar may not be able to be as awesome a bait ship, but it has some critical advantages: 1) Speed. Speed is life for cruisers, your Proteus is just going to get tackled and ganked. 2) Dps. 5x heavies vs. 4x heavies. 3) Drone bay size. The Ishtar can carry a huge variety of drones and plenty of replacements, the Proteus can't. 4) Ewar. The Ishtar has mids free for ewar, the Proteus doesn't. 5) Cost. 100 mil hull vs. 300 mil hull (assuming they ever reach the intended price). T3 ships are good, but they aren't going to completely replace T2. 1. 1058 m/s permarunning mwd. 2. Ishtar 375m2 vs Proteus 225m2 3. Ishtar will have 95 more dps from drone damage. 4. Proteus is a t3 customizable ship. If I want an extra slot I can configure it for that. Not that I would use ecm on it unless I was setting up a t3 ecm ship. 5. Cost is only a factor if you lose it. Its highly likely going up against an Ishtar in my proteus that I would trounce that Ishtar to hell and back. Ganking Buddhist Nun
Infinity Ziona Minmatar I AM BETTER THAN YOU	Posted - 2009.05.22 09:09:00 - [5] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 22/05/2009 08:40:50 Originally by: Infinity Ziona 1. 1058 m/s permarunning mwd. Which is half as fast as an Ishtar, and several hundred m/s slower than any non-comedy HAC/recon. Quote: 2. Ishtar 375m2 vs Proteus 225m2 I rest my case. That's 150m3 more, or a full set of sentries/spare ogres/2x flights of mediums, and a set of warrior IIs. Quote: 3. Ishtar will have 95 more dps from drone damage. Exactly. The Ishtar gets 25% more dps than the Proteus (we're ignoring the lol gun damage). Quote: 4. Proteus is a t3 customizable ship. If I want an extra slot I can configure it for that. Not that I would use ecm on it unless I was setting up a t3 ecm ship. Good luck getting a decent number of mids on a Proteus. PS: there's more to ewar than ECM. Try tracking disruptors sometime. Quote: 5. Cost is only a factor if you lose it. Its highly likely going up against an Ishtar in my proteus that I would trounce that Ishtar to hell and back. No it isn't. The Ishtar is going to orbit you at 20km, out-run your heavy drones, and call in a couple friends to gank your overpriced brick. Or just kill you really slowly solo, while all you can do is sit there helplessly and wait to die. Ishtar with level V relevant skills is 1295 with t2 mwd and 1 1600mm plate. With overheat its 1829. With max skills to V its not cap stable so you have no permarunning mwd. It has 22k ehp. It has no overheat bonus. Proteus with level V relevant skills is 1346 with t2 mwd. With overheat is 1900. With max skills to V its cap stable at 85%. It has 44k ehp. It has 25% overheat bonus. Even with the brick setup above my proteus will run you down and kick your ass because your not cap stable and I am. Ganking Buddhist Nun
Infinity Ziona Minmatar I AM BETTER THAN YOU	Posted - 2009.05.22 09:58:00 - [6] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: Infinity Ziona Ishtar with level V relevant skills is 1295 with t2 mwd and 1 1600mm plate. With overheat its 1829. With max skills to V its not cap stable so you have no permarunning mwd. It has 22k ehp. It has no overheat bonus. Could we please not talk about comedy setups like 1600mm plated Ishtars? A proper Ishtar setup is going 1827km/s, without overheat or implants. And since you're including a slave set on your Proteus, it's only fair to include a snake set on the Ishtar, making it even faster. PS: cap boosters are your friend. The Ishtar can perma-run the MWD until you run out of cap charges. Quote: Proteus with level V relevant skills is 1346 with t2 mwd. With overheat is 1900. With max skills to V its cap stable at 85%. It has 44k ehp. It has 25% overheat bonus. So you're 500m/s slower, even if you sacrifice all that armor HP you were bragging about. PS: that Ishtar has 36k EHP. I think I'll quite happily trade 10k EHP for 500m/s speed advantage, 25% more dps, and much more versatility in drones. Quote: Even with the brick setup above my proteus will run you down and kick your ass because your not cap stable and I am. The Ishtar is cap-stable more than long enough for its gang to kill your overpriced brick, and even if it can't kill you solo, as soon as it runs out of cap charges, it can effortlessly disengage and there's nothing you can do to stop it. The proteus is inherently faster, with 100% more EHP and limitless cap. Your tactic to outrun the proteus in a slower ship is nonsense since whatever you do to increase your base speed I can do to increase mine to keep it above yours. Since we are using theoretical gangs, my gang could just as easily tackle and gank you, except with your limited cap and 50% less ehp my proteus will still be at 50% while your popping into your pod. Sorry Merin but you lose (again). Ganking Buddhist Nun
Infinity Ziona Minmatar I AM BETTER THAN YOU	Posted - 2009.05.22 10:41:00 - [7] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Infinity Ziona Your tactic to outrun the proteus in a slower ship is nonsense since whatever you do to increase your base speed I can do to increase mine to keep it above yours. àthereby losing the monster EHP you keep touting, thus rendering your entire argument moot. EHP <-> Speed. Move it in any direction I still got much more ehp and superior speed. I dont recall saying EHP > all. I just said my proteus got similiar hac damage with 375k of ehp and at 300m thats way too OP. Not that that was the fit to pwn all comers. Ganking Buddhist Nun
Infinity Ziona Minmatar I AM BETTER THAN YOU	Posted - 2009.05.22 10:44:00 - [8] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Infinity Ziona Ishtar with level V relevant skills is 1295 with t2 mwd and 1 1600mm plate. With overheat its 1829. With max skills to V its not cap stable so you have no permarunning mwd. It has 22k ehp. It has no overheat bonus. I think the problem here is that you've decided to failfit your Ishtar. No the problem is your comprehension. The only things fitted were: Proteus: 1 1600mm plate t2. 1 10mn MWD t2. Ishtar 1 1600mm plate t2 1 10mn MWD t2. Ganking Buddhist Nun
Infinity Ziona Minmatar I AM BETTER THAN YOU	Posted - 2009.05.22 11:19:00 - [9] Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 22/05/2009 11:05:41 Originally by: Admiral IceBlock Basic economy 101; you with me? Except, of course, that you're quite wrong about the reasons ù see the other thread you spammed for further details. Originally by: Infinity Ziona No the problem is your comprehension. No, the problem is that you're making an irrelevant comparison between unrealistic fits. No its a relevant comparison on the base stats of the ships specifically regarding base speed and EHP and stable cap. Fitting other modules to modify the base stats would not change the relationship since anything you could fit on the Ishtar to gain speed or tank or cap would also be able to fit on the proteus to counter that gain. Since the Proteus is superior in all 3 areas as well as in grid and cpu its a non-argument. Proving once again, that, I AM BETTER THAN YOU.
Infinity Ziona Minmatar I AM BETTER THAN YOU	Posted - 2009.05.22 15:55:00 - [10] Originally by: Rajere The "ishtar" Proteus is the absolute worst Possible Proteus "theme" you could build your subsystems around, ever. It's terrible, no idea why you're using that one to champion T3 ships, the Ishtar outclasses it in everyway. LOL: Highs: I 5 P 6 OC P Mids: I 5 P 3 OC I Lows: I 5 P 7 OC P Grid: I 356 P 512 OC P CPU: I 883 P 1368 OC P Bandw: I 125 P 100 OC I EHP: I 10k P 32k OC P Cap: I 1400 P 1800 OC P Tar Rng: I 75k P 109 OC P Sen Str: I 16 P 33 OC P Speed: I 226 P 238 OC P Drn Bay: I 375 P 225 OC I I = Ishtar P = Proteus OC = Outclassed By: Result: Proteus outclasses Ishtar by 10 to 4. In EHP by 300% alone. Its clearly superior making your statement laughable. Read the sig! Proving once again, that, I AM BETTER THAN YOU.

Infinity Ziona Minmatar I AM BETTER THAN YOU	Posted - 2009.05.23 04:01:00 - [11] Originally by: MukkBarovian Edited by: MukkBarovian on 22/05/2009 20:31:11 Confirming that there are two viable ishtar setups: #1 Shield Tanked Nano Ishtar #2 Dominix In enemy territory that Proteus setup will get run down and blobbed. In a 1v1 with an ishtar you will be kited. He might grind you down himself, or more likely about 5 mins later the blob will land on you. Either way his vastly superior speed will mean that he really has to ** up to die. In a fleet battle a non-**ed fc will have someone point you, and then will ignore you as he tries to win the battle. If he does he will kill you a part of the victory celebration. The ultimate form of teabaging the enemy fc who will get to add a multibillion dollar ship to the pyre of his failure. Thats not saying a proteus at a more reasonable price is bad. But the ishtar definitely still has a place. Edit- I forgot the last use. Sitting around docked in your home system with a bunch of buddies and scouts waiting for a **** to stumble in so you can gank him with your pimp ship. I used to have a Machariel for that. But it almost died in a fleet battle and I sold it afterwards. Read first then post. 1. The fit was not a pvp pwn all fit. It was demonstrating how much armor you can get on a proteus and still do hac like damage. 2. An ishtar is SLOWER then a proteus 3. In enemy territory an ishtar (or any ship) will get run down and blobbed 4. In a fleet battle all t3 will be primaried. Why would you take one to a fleet battle unless it was cov ops config? Look above at my last post. The ishtar is far outclassed by the proteus ishtar variant (lots more cap, lots more grid, lots more cpu, more speed, far more ehp, double the targetting range, permarunning mwd without booster and a few additonal things) Ishtar has 25% more drone damage (95dps with ogres), and 150 more drone bay and a mid slot advantage Proving once again, that, I AM BETTER THAN YOU.
Infinity Ziona Minmatar I AM BETTER THAN YOU	Posted - 2009.05.23 04:08:00 - [12] Originally by: london Proteus is down to 1.8b on market. I saw a hull for sale in Hek for 690m. It is going down in price. I have had a proteus hull for sale at 700 mill in Rens for 2 weeks. I grabbed one with subsystems from jita, took it to heimatar and made half a bill selling the subsystems at much higher prices. They went fast but hull is still there. :) Proving once again, that, I AM BETTER THAN YOU.
Infinity Ziona Minmatar I AM BETTER THAN YOU	Posted - 2009.05.23 17:51:00 - [13] Originally by: Rajere pointless insults designed to obscure baseless statements of fact Proteus outclasses the Ishtar in almost all areas. Midslots - Ishtar with mwd is not cap stable without injector, without sensor booster ishtar with level 5 skills = 67km targeting range. Thats your drone control range = 67km. With cap booster and sensor booster you are temporarily cap stable (almost as good as proteus without injector) and targeting range but you lose your mid slot advantage. Drone Bandwidth - Ishtar gets around 100 dps extra from drones. Drone Bay - Ishtar gets 100 m3 extra. Proteus can hold 2 full flights of 4 heavies + 1 spare heavy. You can have your 100 dps and 100 extra pointless m3 and I'll keep the speed, the ehp, the grid, cpu, cap and all the rest of the useless things your ishtar doesnt need ;) Now if you wanna come back and make some more pointless unsubstantiated unexplained statements of fact please be my guest. Proving once again, that, I AM BETTER THAN YOU.
Infinity Ziona Minmatar I AM BETTER THAN YOU	Posted - 2009.05.24 02:00:00 - [14] Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 24/05/2009 02:01:00 Originally by: Rajere Originally by: "newb" You can have all of the things that make the "Ishtar" concept functional (DPS, Speed, Drone Range, available drones options), and I'll keep the useless things an ishtar doesnt need so I can fofofo in EFT and lose 2bil if I ever decide to undock to pvp in my fail ishtar proteus Fixed for ya. The Proteus is not an Ishtar. It can be a better one if it likes though. End Of Story. Editing my posts and calling me a newb, especially when I started in 2003, is more pointless obfuscation eh. Read My Sig, Look at my Corp name, understand your place in EvE. Proving once again, that, I AM BETTER THAN YOU.

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